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J.K. Lund's avatar

I have to agree with you. The modern “green” movement gets in its own way by opposing almost everything. I understand not wanting coal smokestacks, but when they also stand against Natural Gas, Nuclear, Hydro, and often times windmills (because birds), I have to question what the goal of the movement actually is.

As true stewards of life on Earth, we should celebrate human achievement, after all, we are animals on this planet too. Degrowthing our civilization, or freezing progress in place, increases the long-term existential risk to civilization and therefore life on Earth.

The fastest way to protect the environment, paradoxically, is to accelerate economic growth and human progress.

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Byron Kaufman I GridScienceAI's avatar

Enjoyed. Is this debate losing the forest from the trees? Or mixing metaphors, are we missing the elephant in the room?

Because we're not trying to eat our pie and have it too, we're trying to eat all the pies for all time. The social framing may appear as "save the polar bears" because that's how people relate to the world. But it's not an accurate framing.

The present economic system is stealing from the future to enrich a few present. The theft is of such magnitude we risk contagious societal collapse, at a minimum. Failure of basic systems and movement of a billion people in warlike conditions, will make the Capitalism unviable. Risk becomes too unpredictable, the economy de-levers, and monetary velocity descends back to the generational transfer rate behind walls or on tropical drone guarded islands.

And this entire scam operates under the cloud of time uncertainty, humanity's juvenile maturity, and limited attention span. But there is no doubt, from the clear and consistent experience of history and science, what is in store for us. And let's not Dues ex Machina that.

The problem is not material progress, because that is happening little in the developed world. The problem is a consumption for status society that damages our bodies, social relations, and societal decision making today. And that game is deliberately rigged with false prices, so that insiders in a monopolistic marketplace can capture the surplus from today and the next millennia.

Show me a society today that is working with the rational risk adjusted prices for energy, investing in long-term adaptive infrastructure, managing agriculture so those fields still work in 6 generations, building so the product can actually be insured, and not filling their reproductive organs up with micro-plastics. We have a long way to go. And it shouldn't be much of a debate unless some ideology or system is committed to stealing.

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