As an owner of several incredibly reliable Toyota hybrid vehicles over the past 24 years, include a RAV4 plug-in hybrid for the past 4 year, I would strongly advocate a plug-in hybrid. The Toyota one is incredibly reliable, as you might expect, and with a 50 mile range, can be used in full electric mode for most journeys. The resale value is also outstanding.. Long range plug-in hybrids are going to dominate electric vehicles for the simple reason that they have zero range anxiety (indeed they have incredible ranges) and can be charged at home with a regular plug. So no special electricity infrastructure is required.
I would not touch any hybrids other than Toyota or Lexus at the moment as few have the same extraordinary reliability.
That was my original choice as well. Glad to hear that your RAV4 plug-in hybrid is working well. Yes, I think Consumer Reports overall averages cover up huge variations between makes and models. My sense is that the RAV4 plug-in hybrid is probably much more reliable than other plug-in hybrids. Not sure how it compares to the other types of RAV4.
But if it is working for you, that is all that matters!
If the price differential between a RAV4 hybrid and a RAV4 Prime plug-in had not been so great we would have bought one last year.
One of the things that it's good to consider is that if you buy a Prime, but do not yet have a charger installed, no big deal. In that case they will act very much like a RAV4 standard hybrid--or at least this is my current understanding.
If this is accurate, the RAV4 Prime gives you *tremendous* flexibility in selection of power sources.
Good write-up. I'm curious if there's an engineering reason for the plug-in hybrid issue (or the hybrid advantage), or if it's purely a matter of the allocation of the specific manufacturers and models.
I was told some years ago that Toyota was now in a class by itself in terms of reliability because it is the only auto manufacturer that treats reliability as its top priority. This is in contrast to maybe 20 years ago, when Honda, for example, placed a similar priority on reliability.
Thanks for the comment. It has been a while since I did a comprehensive study, but Toyota, Honda and Subaru were clearly the best compared to other carmakers last time I checked. Perhaps the gap between the three now favors Toyota, but that is news to me.
Fortunately, reliability is improving for all carmakers, so maybe it is not as big a deal as I think. But I hate having to deal with car repairs and breakdowns plus I love driving the same car for decades.
Your first question is a good one. Unfortunately, I can only speculate on the answer. I can see how a hybrid would take some wear-and-tear off an ICE engine, and I can see how carmakers who are not familiar with EV drivetrains may not have mastered its reliability.
Plug-in hybrids are pretty rare and sell in low volume, so it may be that carmakers have still not perfected the technology and have little financial reason to do so. My hope is that reliability of EVs and plug-ins catches ICE and hybrids within the decade. We will have to wait and see.
1) a huge driver of insurance cost is the demographics of the driver. The wealthier, younger, more single, and more male the driver the more it’s going to cost, even controlling for the cost of the vehicle.
As EVs get driven more and more by middle class family normies the insurance cost will come down.
2) if you haven’t had the joy of living in a state with a car tax based on assessed value, this is another thing making EV uncompetitive.
I did a similar evaluation when I needed to replace my prior car due to someone rear ending me. My decision was a PHEV and a dryer plug adapter (240V option) located in the laundry room next to the garage. I regularly get eMPG of higher than the manufacturers statistic of 84, but that is because I always plug it in and don't travel past the 33 mile range of the battery, normally. When I do longer trips, it is significantly worse than a Hybrid version of the car at 26 mpg, which I have tracked on the Fuelly website. But the satisfaction of filling up the 12 gallon tank and still having a 300+ mile range for much less cost than I use to pay at the pump, is visceral. Plus I do it nearly a quarter of the time I used to have to go to a gas station. The cost of the car is significantly higher than the ICE and Hybrid versions, so it's going to take a long time to equal out, but I mainly did it for the safety enhancements and the ability to park it at plug in spots nearer to store entrances. And I can arrord it.
Yours was a very similar evaluation process to the one we used in Nov of 2024, except we did not consider a full EV car due to worries about recharging in more remote locations.
While the RAV4 plug-in seemed optimal, it would require us to get more electrical service (an addition 240v circuit for fast charging) and install a charger, the lack of availability drove the asking price up >10K over the RAV4 hybrid, which we ended up buying.
...and I discovered an interesting driving technique that allows the car to actually get very close to the advertised 39 mpg combined. It's to simply drive the car in cruise control even on city streets. The hybrid control program attempts to drive the car at optimum efficiency all the time.
I've been doing this since Jan 2024 and the total combined mpg is 38.4. This includes both long extended trips and urban driving, at a ratio of about 3:1 in favor of urban. The odometer says we've gone approx. 6K miles during that period, so it is 6K miles at 38.4 mpg.
And yes, I had an earlier hybrid Highlander. It's not my first hybrid.
I am not really sure that a RAV4 plug-in requires a 240 volt charger. It has a pretty small battery, so it can easily be recharged overnight via the standard 120volt charger. Plus it has a gas tank for those extra miles. Currently, 95% of our recharging is via 120 volt. We had a 240 volt installed when we had our new house built, but we rarely use it.
But, yes, the markup for the plug-in is ridiculous. Given how small the battery is, I am not sure this is due to the technology. I think Toyota is just marking it up due to low supply.
Plugin hybrids are scarcer and more expensive in states other than California, because California penalizes makers on the average MPG of cars sold in the state, so Toyota prioritizes the plugin models for California. I live in Arizona and in 2023 I wanted to buy a RAV4 Prime or Prius Prime, but they were never any available for months, the dealers all said they were reserved for California so I eventually got a Crown hybrid instead, since I had already budgeted the higher price, and it was available, also it is a nice car, like a Lexus without the status, which is fine with me.
I'm considering a used Leaf. What is the *earliest* model that you would feel pretty comfortable about buying, especially WRT to remaining battery life?
Please assume a "normal" amount of yearly mileage on the used Leaf. My guess is that Leafs with "normal" use would have fairly low mileage as compared to ICE or hybrids, simply because of the fairly limited range of the earlier models. Maybe 6K?
I would be very careful unless you live in a very moderate climate with flat terrain. Also factor in price of electricity, which varies by state.
Range degradation is a very real issue with older electric cars and batteries are extremely expensive to replace. Ours has 65k on it, and the dash says it gets 67-72 miles range. It gets worse range on hot and cold days. I would not feel comfortable driving much more than 50 miles round trip. Handling is terrible on ice. We do not drive it if there is any hint of snow or ice.
I believe our model was the first real electric car. I think it was 2nd gen Leaf. I would be skeptical of getting anything older than this unless it is a great deal.
If you get a great deal, then it is a fine back-up town car, though. But be sure to do a test drive of 40 miles to verify range. If the owner objects, walk away.
If by 6k you mean the asking price, I can see that being a good deal.
We live in Portland, OR. There can be ice but it is not a regular occurrence.
This is all great advice and I thank you for it.
FWIW, so far as changes in ambient temp, yes, this swas evident on the hybrids, but much more so on the older Highlander (2019). There were significant differences especially when it got colder--and by this I mean in the 30s-40s. Maybe 6-7 mpg.
Much, much less so with the 2024 RAV4 hybrid. I am not sure I've noticed the difference, if any.
But physics says that there certainly *will* be a difference, and this intrinsic limitation is seldom mentioned when discussing pure EVs. Current technology makes pure EV a questionable fit for the north central plains, I would think, especially where reliability is a priority.
E.g., when you heat your EV, where does the heat come from? If from the main storage battery, then in addition to the problems that iithium ion batteries (all batteries, so far as I know) have in extreme temps, we also have the drag of passenger space heating.
It doesn't, but I'd want a fast charge for two reasons: a) it makes the most sense to me if I must outlay for a charging port at home, to get one that is optimized for speed of charge; and b) at some point in the future I may want to get an EV, and if I had spent money on a 120V charging port, how would I then feel?
While I do not like how current EV subsidies above-average-income car buyers, this program seems to go too far in the opposite direction. My guess is that it is not going to work very well.
As an owner of several incredibly reliable Toyota hybrid vehicles over the past 24 years, include a RAV4 plug-in hybrid for the past 4 year, I would strongly advocate a plug-in hybrid. The Toyota one is incredibly reliable, as you might expect, and with a 50 mile range, can be used in full electric mode for most journeys. The resale value is also outstanding.. Long range plug-in hybrids are going to dominate electric vehicles for the simple reason that they have zero range anxiety (indeed they have incredible ranges) and can be charged at home with a regular plug. So no special electricity infrastructure is required.
I would not touch any hybrids other than Toyota or Lexus at the moment as few have the same extraordinary reliability.
Thanks for the comment.
That was my original choice as well. Glad to hear that your RAV4 plug-in hybrid is working well. Yes, I think Consumer Reports overall averages cover up huge variations between makes and models. My sense is that the RAV4 plug-in hybrid is probably much more reliable than other plug-in hybrids. Not sure how it compares to the other types of RAV4.
But if it is working for you, that is all that matters!
If the price differential between a RAV4 hybrid and a RAV4 Prime plug-in had not been so great we would have bought one last year.
One of the things that it's good to consider is that if you buy a Prime, but do not yet have a charger installed, no big deal. In that case they will act very much like a RAV4 standard hybrid--or at least this is my current understanding.
If this is accurate, the RAV4 Prime gives you *tremendous* flexibility in selection of power sources.
Depending on how much you drive it, a plugin hybrid can get sufficient charge overnight from a normal 120v 15amp outlet, no charger required.
Wow!
JUst a plain old extension cord that will support 15 A? Like one would use for a portable A/C in the house?
That's something!
Good write-up. I'm curious if there's an engineering reason for the plug-in hybrid issue (or the hybrid advantage), or if it's purely a matter of the allocation of the specific manufacturers and models.
I was told some years ago that Toyota was now in a class by itself in terms of reliability because it is the only auto manufacturer that treats reliability as its top priority. This is in contrast to maybe 20 years ago, when Honda, for example, placed a similar priority on reliability.
Thanks for the comment. It has been a while since I did a comprehensive study, but Toyota, Honda and Subaru were clearly the best compared to other carmakers last time I checked. Perhaps the gap between the three now favors Toyota, but that is news to me.
Fortunately, reliability is improving for all carmakers, so maybe it is not as big a deal as I think. But I hate having to deal with car repairs and breakdowns plus I love driving the same car for decades.
Your first question is a good one. Unfortunately, I can only speculate on the answer. I can see how a hybrid would take some wear-and-tear off an ICE engine, and I can see how carmakers who are not familiar with EV drivetrains may not have mastered its reliability.
Plug-in hybrids are pretty rare and sell in low volume, so it may be that carmakers have still not perfected the technology and have little financial reason to do so. My hope is that reliability of EVs and plug-ins catches ICE and hybrids within the decade. We will have to wait and see.
Based on owning two Toyota hybrids, I'd give a fair degree of credibility to their plug-in hybrid, by default.
...and I'm not a very credulous person, so...
1) a huge driver of insurance cost is the demographics of the driver. The wealthier, younger, more single, and more male the driver the more it’s going to cost, even controlling for the cost of the vehicle.
As EVs get driven more and more by middle class family normies the insurance cost will come down.
2) if you haven’t had the joy of living in a state with a car tax based on assessed value, this is another thing making EV uncompetitive.
I did a similar evaluation when I needed to replace my prior car due to someone rear ending me. My decision was a PHEV and a dryer plug adapter (240V option) located in the laundry room next to the garage. I regularly get eMPG of higher than the manufacturers statistic of 84, but that is because I always plug it in and don't travel past the 33 mile range of the battery, normally. When I do longer trips, it is significantly worse than a Hybrid version of the car at 26 mpg, which I have tracked on the Fuelly website. But the satisfaction of filling up the 12 gallon tank and still having a 300+ mile range for much less cost than I use to pay at the pump, is visceral. Plus I do it nearly a quarter of the time I used to have to go to a gas station. The cost of the car is significantly higher than the ICE and Hybrid versions, so it's going to take a long time to equal out, but I mainly did it for the safety enhancements and the ability to park it at plug in spots nearer to store entrances. And I can arrord it.
Yours was a very similar evaluation process to the one we used in Nov of 2024, except we did not consider a full EV car due to worries about recharging in more remote locations.
While the RAV4 plug-in seemed optimal, it would require us to get more electrical service (an addition 240v circuit for fast charging) and install a charger, the lack of availability drove the asking price up >10K over the RAV4 hybrid, which we ended up buying.
...and I discovered an interesting driving technique that allows the car to actually get very close to the advertised 39 mpg combined. It's to simply drive the car in cruise control even on city streets. The hybrid control program attempts to drive the car at optimum efficiency all the time.
I've been doing this since Jan 2024 and the total combined mpg is 38.4. This includes both long extended trips and urban driving, at a ratio of about 3:1 in favor of urban. The odometer says we've gone approx. 6K miles during that period, so it is 6K miles at 38.4 mpg.
And yes, I had an earlier hybrid Highlander. It's not my first hybrid.
Thanks for the comment.
I am not really sure that a RAV4 plug-in requires a 240 volt charger. It has a pretty small battery, so it can easily be recharged overnight via the standard 120volt charger. Plus it has a gas tank for those extra miles. Currently, 95% of our recharging is via 120 volt. We had a 240 volt installed when we had our new house built, but we rarely use it.
But, yes, the markup for the plug-in is ridiculous. Given how small the battery is, I am not sure this is due to the technology. I think Toyota is just marking it up due to low supply.
Thanks for the driving tip.
Plugin hybrids are scarcer and more expensive in states other than California, because California penalizes makers on the average MPG of cars sold in the state, so Toyota prioritizes the plugin models for California. I live in Arizona and in 2023 I wanted to buy a RAV4 Prime or Prius Prime, but they were never any available for months, the dealers all said they were reserved for California so I eventually got a Crown hybrid instead, since I had already budgeted the higher price, and it was available, also it is a nice car, like a Lexus without the status, which is fine with me.
I would like to ask an *opinion*.
I'm considering a used Leaf. What is the *earliest* model that you would feel pretty comfortable about buying, especially WRT to remaining battery life?
Please assume a "normal" amount of yearly mileage on the used Leaf. My guess is that Leafs with "normal" use would have fairly low mileage as compared to ICE or hybrids, simply because of the fairly limited range of the earlier models. Maybe 6K?
This would essentially be a back-up town car.
I would be very careful unless you live in a very moderate climate with flat terrain. Also factor in price of electricity, which varies by state.
Range degradation is a very real issue with older electric cars and batteries are extremely expensive to replace. Ours has 65k on it, and the dash says it gets 67-72 miles range. It gets worse range on hot and cold days. I would not feel comfortable driving much more than 50 miles round trip. Handling is terrible on ice. We do not drive it if there is any hint of snow or ice.
I believe our model was the first real electric car. I think it was 2nd gen Leaf. I would be skeptical of getting anything older than this unless it is a great deal.
If you get a great deal, then it is a fine back-up town car, though. But be sure to do a test drive of 40 miles to verify range. If the owner objects, walk away.
If by 6k you mean the asking price, I can see that being a good deal.
We live in Portland, OR. There can be ice but it is not a regular occurrence.
This is all great advice and I thank you for it.
FWIW, so far as changes in ambient temp, yes, this swas evident on the hybrids, but much more so on the older Highlander (2019). There were significant differences especially when it got colder--and by this I mean in the 30s-40s. Maybe 6-7 mpg.
Much, much less so with the 2024 RAV4 hybrid. I am not sure I've noticed the difference, if any.
But physics says that there certainly *will* be a difference, and this intrinsic limitation is seldom mentioned when discussing pure EVs. Current technology makes pure EV a questionable fit for the north central plains, I would think, especially where reliability is a priority.
E.g., when you heat your EV, where does the heat come from? If from the main storage battery, then in addition to the problems that iithium ion batteries (all batteries, so far as I know) have in extreme temps, we also have the drag of passenger space heating.
It doesn't, but I'd want a fast charge for two reasons: a) it makes the most sense to me if I must outlay for a charging port at home, to get one that is optimized for speed of charge; and b) at some point in the future I may want to get an EV, and if I had spent money on a 120V charging port, how would I then feel?
:^)
If you are at or below poverty level in Washington State you can get even more fabulous rebates on EVs:
"Electric Vehicles for the Impoverished"
https://open.substack.com/pub/tucoschild/p/electric-vehicles-for-the-impoverished?r=2mh23j&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Hmm. Never heard of this program.
While I do not like how current EV subsidies above-average-income car buyers, this program seems to go too far in the opposite direction. My guess is that it is not going to work very well.