Appreciate seeing these two green camps compared and contrasted. I was a deep green for about a year until I found KMO’s podcast and youtube (outtamyhead) videos on “peak oil bullshit”. My mind was reopened from there.
I’ve come to disavow all the degrowth romantics for the mere fact that implementing it requires authoritarian measures to crush the will of the vast majority of us. This was even before I was agnostic on climate alarmism. When a worldview requires violence to implement its not worth it. Best we can do is allow a set amount of freedom that results in its own messes and injustices.
I also just see our species as inseparable from our energy source we’ve built our civilization around. I remember being very convinced and moved by “Overshoot” where he described humanity as no different than a wine yeast that replicates and grows in direct relation to its sugar supply. Once the sugar supply diminishes so does humanity. This may very well be the case at some point and I don’t see an alternative to shaming the yeast for what it evolved to do.
The final kicker is that liquid fossils fuels are the best option for decentralized or democratized power distribution. Citizens can store liquid gas and empower their day to day productivity but an electronic source is much easier to cut off on a whim (Gavin Newsome) bc storage requires a more centralized technocratic system beholden to fewer humans.
Thanks! I’m not very insightful. This really sums up the novel thoughts I’ve had on the topic. I do have some saved texts I’ve written to friends on what moved me away from the left. Maybe I’ll compile them into a post.
It’s this, the concerning support for prosecuting people who have to defend themselves from violent sacred victims of society, and the manner in which the caution in child sex change is considered genocide.
There is so much here. This was really thought provoking. I'm not sure where I fall in these categories since I believe in holistic approach to environmental, health, education, economic issues. I post in this off chance someone sees value in opposing points of view. So I suspect you know Michael, this isn't directed at you.
The 40+ years of corporate consolidation in energy post the end of the gold reserve and nuclear winter eliminated choice/competition in the energy sector. I support oil/natural gas as fillers. So when I write this its not to say the fossil fuel industry has no value. It's to say that annually, trillions of dollars in subsidies have been given to fossil fuel companies, in a predatory monopolistic way, that constrained the geopolitics of the US and probably delayed a green transition. It's established they knew about anthropogenic climate change and proceeded on course for decades. The amount of pollution that has not been mitigated/litigated is enormous. I've read your argument against carbon taxes as regressive. It's totally valid. But, because of the 40+ years, unfairly accumulated wealth due to predatory monopolies, a tax seems necessary to distributed funds fairly. A clause can be initiated that once economies are up and running it should be repealed. (still favor low taxes) Its a short-term remedy for a huge fuck up that is decades in the making.
I don't think most of these people would be working peacefully on a commune growing their own food. Living off the land. Netzero is likely not achievable but why not shoot for the moon. I do worry about feedback loops in sensitive ecosystems. If you are making money in this space, you're a capitalist. So what? Let's stop throwing shit at each other as an evolved species. This really takes a village, which means the most uncomfortable conversations. Global debt is a real problem. So the carrot-stick incentives are highly problematic when subsidies are the only things on the table. Creative solutions like private capital, ROI for grouped smaller investors, co-ops, perhaps community owned utilities, everything has to be on the table.
If you don't know Paul Kingsnorth (British writer), you should investigate him. Paul was an all-in on the Greens for 2+ decades, but watched the transition to green techno-optimism in gradually increasing horror. Eventually he left the movement, turned to writing, and went native in the Irish countryside. Several years ago he joined the Orthodox Church and now writes here on substack on theology and what he calls The Machine. These essays are VERY good, but probably not up your alley. Confessions of a Recovering Environmentalist is a good (and short) book from 10 years ago and a good intro to Paul.
He's still a degrowther, but at a personal instead of a political level. For example, when he bought his cabin, he immediately ripped out the toilet and replaced it with a seat with a hole in it and a 5 gallon bucket underneath so he can compost his own poop. Paul's a very interesting and somewhat odd duck. I'm not sure where you would categorize him.
Wow, thank you for the arming questions; it’s a net-zero jungle out there, especially with the Bloomberg armaments of deployed swarms of self-replicating NGO drones hovering over every nook and growth cranny.
Could the reluctance to embrace natural gas usage be motivated by hostily to Russia's government and economy? Also if you liked Tetlocks book you should also check a recent article by Musa al ghabri with similar ideas(you probably already have tho)
Well, I think that has played a role in Europe since 2022, but the Greens abandoned supporting natural gas in the 1990s. And most nations could not even import Russian natural gas if they wanted to, as they lack pipeline connections.
Yes, I have been reading Musa al ghabri lately. So far, it looks good.
Appreciate seeing these two green camps compared and contrasted. I was a deep green for about a year until I found KMO’s podcast and youtube (outtamyhead) videos on “peak oil bullshit”. My mind was reopened from there.
I’ve come to disavow all the degrowth romantics for the mere fact that implementing it requires authoritarian measures to crush the will of the vast majority of us. This was even before I was agnostic on climate alarmism. When a worldview requires violence to implement its not worth it. Best we can do is allow a set amount of freedom that results in its own messes and injustices.
I also just see our species as inseparable from our energy source we’ve built our civilization around. I remember being very convinced and moved by “Overshoot” where he described humanity as no different than a wine yeast that replicates and grows in direct relation to its sugar supply. Once the sugar supply diminishes so does humanity. This may very well be the case at some point and I don’t see an alternative to shaming the yeast for what it evolved to do.
The final kicker is that liquid fossils fuels are the best option for decentralized or democratized power distribution. Citizens can store liquid gas and empower their day to day productivity but an electronic source is much easier to cut off on a whim (Gavin Newsome) bc storage requires a more centralized technocratic system beholden to fewer humans.
Very well said. You should consider writing your own Substack!
I am glad you enjoyed the article and that your were able to see the world in all its complexity.
Unfortunately, not all Greens wake up and choose to side with humanity.
Thanks! I’m not very insightful. This really sums up the novel thoughts I’ve had on the topic. I do have some saved texts I’ve written to friends on what moved me away from the left. Maybe I’ll compile them into a post.
It’s this, the concerning support for prosecuting people who have to defend themselves from violent sacred victims of society, and the manner in which the caution in child sex change is considered genocide.
There is so much here. This was really thought provoking. I'm not sure where I fall in these categories since I believe in holistic approach to environmental, health, education, economic issues. I post in this off chance someone sees value in opposing points of view. So I suspect you know Michael, this isn't directed at you.
The 40+ years of corporate consolidation in energy post the end of the gold reserve and nuclear winter eliminated choice/competition in the energy sector. I support oil/natural gas as fillers. So when I write this its not to say the fossil fuel industry has no value. It's to say that annually, trillions of dollars in subsidies have been given to fossil fuel companies, in a predatory monopolistic way, that constrained the geopolitics of the US and probably delayed a green transition. It's established they knew about anthropogenic climate change and proceeded on course for decades. The amount of pollution that has not been mitigated/litigated is enormous. I've read your argument against carbon taxes as regressive. It's totally valid. But, because of the 40+ years, unfairly accumulated wealth due to predatory monopolies, a tax seems necessary to distributed funds fairly. A clause can be initiated that once economies are up and running it should be repealed. (still favor low taxes) Its a short-term remedy for a huge fuck up that is decades in the making.
I don't think most of these people would be working peacefully on a commune growing their own food. Living off the land. Netzero is likely not achievable but why not shoot for the moon. I do worry about feedback loops in sensitive ecosystems. If you are making money in this space, you're a capitalist. So what? Let's stop throwing shit at each other as an evolved species. This really takes a village, which means the most uncomfortable conversations. Global debt is a real problem. So the carrot-stick incentives are highly problematic when subsidies are the only things on the table. Creative solutions like private capital, ROI for grouped smaller investors, co-ops, perhaps community owned utilities, everything has to be on the table.
My two cents. Great piece.
https://commonhome.georgetown.edu/topics/climateenergy/defense-denial-and-disinformation-uncovering-the-oil-industrys-early-knowledge-of-climate-change/
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs
https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion
If you don't know Paul Kingsnorth (British writer), you should investigate him. Paul was an all-in on the Greens for 2+ decades, but watched the transition to green techno-optimism in gradually increasing horror. Eventually he left the movement, turned to writing, and went native in the Irish countryside. Several years ago he joined the Orthodox Church and now writes here on substack on theology and what he calls The Machine. These essays are VERY good, but probably not up your alley. Confessions of a Recovering Environmentalist is a good (and short) book from 10 years ago and a good intro to Paul.
He's still a degrowther, but at a personal instead of a political level. For example, when he bought his cabin, he immediately ripped out the toilet and replaced it with a seat with a hole in it and a 5 gallon bucket underneath so he can compost his own poop. Paul's a very interesting and somewhat odd duck. I'm not sure where you would categorize him.
I have no problem with individuals who want to reject modernity and live an older lifestyle. In fact, I respect them.
My beef is with people who want to impose this lifestyle on others, particularly those who are not willing to do so themselves.
I've inferred that from your writing. I'm not suggesting Paul to convince you of anything. I really just think you might find him interesting.
Wow, thank you for the arming questions; it’s a net-zero jungle out there, especially with the Bloomberg armaments of deployed swarms of self-replicating NGO drones hovering over every nook and growth cranny.
Thanks. I would really like to hear good faith answers to those questions. Not sure that I will get them, but who knows.
Could the reluctance to embrace natural gas usage be motivated by hostily to Russia's government and economy? Also if you liked Tetlocks book you should also check a recent article by Musa al ghabri with similar ideas(you probably already have tho)
Well, I think that has played a role in Europe since 2022, but the Greens abandoned supporting natural gas in the 1990s. And most nations could not even import Russian natural gas if they wanted to, as they lack pipeline connections.
Yes, I have been reading Musa al ghabri lately. So far, it looks good.